[0:02] David

Welcome back to the Clifford Chance Australia Private Capital podcast. Today, you’ll hear part two of our conversation with Dr Mike Caristo, Co-Founder and Managing Director of Genesis Capital.

[0:16] David

There must have been some challenges starting a private equity firm from scratch.

[0:22] David

Were there any that you look back on and think were a real obstacle for us, or a key challenge we overcame in the early days?

[0:29] Mike

Yeah.

[0:33] Mike

One of the things I didn’t really think through at the time – and maybe I should have – was that, before Genesis, there had been very few private equity firms founded in the way we founded Genesis.

[0:41] Mike

I can’t think of many private equity firms that were founded the way we founded Genesis: going the hard way, raising money deal by deal, building enough of a track record and investor base to then raise a fund, rather than spinning out from an existing private equity firm with significant capital behind them from day one.

[1:07] Mike

We underestimated how difficult that would be. Convincing investors who had worked very hard, and taken risks to build their own capital, to part with it and entrust it to you was absolutely difficult.

[1:24] Mike

So we did a few things to get through that obstacle.

[1:30] Mike

In the early days, we had a strategy consulting, M&A advisory and private equity business.

[1:36] Mike

So we were effectively three businesses in one, so we could continue to pay our mortgages and convince our wives to give us a little more rope to get the business off the ground.

[1:46] Mike

That was difficult – making sure we could balance all those priorities.

[1:50] Mike

Another thing we found difficult was building the team.

[1:53] Mike

It’s a little bit chicken and egg.

[1:55] Mike

You want the economics to be able to fund the team, and private equity, once you’ve raised the funds, has a very stable set of economics.

[2:03] Mike

But before that, it’s a little bit feast or famine.

[2:05] Mike

So we had to convince our team to come along on the journey with us and believe we would make it to raising committed capital.

[2:16] Mike

As a result, we still have hangovers from those days in our culture today.

[2:20] Mike

Still today.

[2:21] Mike

Everyone at Genesis knows what everybody else is paid.

[2:25] Mike

We publish the pay scales for the entire team every year. It’s not through some altruistic, new-age culture.

[2:33] Mike

It was simply because we had a little mutiny in the early days and had to show everyone our P&L and how much there was to go around, so everyone came along on the journey with us.

[2:52] Mike

Almost nobody has left the business from those early days, and the culture is still one of a group of us building something together that we’ve had the vision for over a long time, rather than simply a transactional relationship where we pay people for their time.

[3:10] David

When I think of private equity, to be honest, I don't think about that level of transparency.

[3:15] David

That's not the first thought that I have is that.

[3:17] David

Would you say that's relatively unique to your organisation?

[3:20] Mike

Actually, we had in our most recent fundraising, we had some, some investors shocked that that was how we, how we did things and said that they'd never seen that anywhere else.

[3:30] Mike

As I said, it’s simply a quirk of our history that we ended up that way.

[3:35] Mike

But it’s stuck with us, and it really does work for us.

[3:38] David

Were there any good-luck moments that helped you reach exit velocity, or was it just one step after another?

[3:48] Mike

There was absolutely a lot of luck along the way.

[3:51] Mike

I think back to those early days deal by deal investing, we made four deal by deal investments and we've subsequently exited three of those.

[3:59] Mike

But those, those three that we've exite were fantastic investments by, by any metric, but there was a heavy dose of luck in each of them.

[4:09] Mike

We bought Acu and a bioanalytical lab in 2018, which represented our first two investments.

[4:17] Mike

I think we did a fantastic job buying these businesses in partnership with scientists.

[4:20] Mike

We didn't own 100% of them.

[4:22] Mike

We partnered with the scientists, founders, we saw an opportunity in the market for, for Australia to, to benefit from the wave of, of clinical trials coming to the, the, the country.

[4:33] Mike

And you know, I flew to, these were Adelaide based businesses.

[4:36] Mike

I flew to Adelaide each week for, for over a year to, to really turn those businesses around.

[4:41] Mike

But the bit where we got incredibly lucky was three years later in 2021, there was a global pandemic and biotech funding was at once in a generation levels.

[4:50] Mike

And so multiple, if you owned a business in the farmer services sector, they were trading at multiples that had never been seen before.

[4:57] Mike

And I'm not sure that we'll see again.

[4:58] Mike

So we exited at that time and were really fortunate with the result we got for our investors. Having an early success like that – or early successes like that – built a track record that then attracted LPs.

[5:16] Mike

Yeah, it happened really organically.

[5:18] Mike

That very first investment was was with a very limited set of investors which then by our second one grew a little more, grew a little more by our third and our 4th.

[5:30] Mike

So that we raised, when we raised our first fund, something that probably makes it a little bit unique.

[5:33] Mike

We raised that first fund in 2021.

[5:37] Mike

And again most if not all private equity firms in Australia are largely institutionally LED, you know raising money from both domestic and offshore institutions.

[5:47] Mike

We did it the hard way.

[5:48] Mike

We had 250 individual LP's, almost all of which were domestic high net worths, you know, 75 to 80% domestic high net worths.

[5:58] Mike

And we, we raised those directly, not via intermediaries, you know, knocking on doors.

[6:02] Mike

And actually because of that, those early successes, luckily there was a lot of word of mouth that helped us raise that first fund in the early days.

[6:10] David

Wow, that’s amazing.

[6:11] David

That sounds like a lot of work.

[6:13] Mike

It was, it was.

[6:14] David

But you know, we were, we were building a business, and you've described the unique culture that your firm has, and you've got a very specific investment mandate.

[6:26] David

But are there any firms either in Australia or around the world that you look at and say we'd love Genesis Capital to be that, for example?

[6:35] David

I know that we've spoken previously about Alpine Investors as a firm that that you admire.

[6:41] David

Is there anything particularly about them that you you think of?

[6:44] Mike

Yeah, actually.

[6:46] Mike

So Alpine was a, is, a business I've come across more recently and I've gone oh wow.

[6:52] Mike

There's a lot of parallels between what they've gone and built and what we're what we're trying to build.

[6:57] Mike

I think the bits of what they do that I really, I really resonate with.

[7:02] Mike

The first is, I think most private technical firms, certainly in Australia have as they've gotten more and more successful, they've increased their fund size, fund one fund after another and grown to a, a different market to the one that they originally started out with and where they were most successful.

[7:19] Mike

Certainly that that that's what happened to my previous firm.

[7:22] Mike

At present they've they've grown to be to be really large.

[7:26] Mike

Now Alpine have said no, no, we are squarely low mid-market investors.

[7:30] Mike

We love businesses that are making, you know, 203040 million of revenue, buying off founders who are having succession issues, and we back ourselves to add value to those businesses.

[7:39] Mike

So that's the first thing that I really resonate with.

[7:41] Mike

And I think if we're being true to our investment philosophy, being a healthcare specialist in Australia works if you stay in that mid-market and, and don't and don't grow too large.

[7:51] Mike

So resisting the challenge of chasing AUM and staying to the core of what's made you what you are.

[7:57] Mike

Well, interestingly, Alpine has managed to get grow their funds under management, but they've done so horizontally.

[8:03] Mike

They've said, well, that's the thing that we're really, really good at.

[8:05] Mike

The other thing that they're really good at, which, you know, I believe Genesis is also good, but I'd love for us to be even better at is how they add value to businesses.

[8:13] Mike

So that sort of business that is transitioning from a, from a founder requires some really active involvement.

[8:21] Mike

And yes, you can get them at really good prices, but you, you need to really know how to, how to transition it safely and then grow it.

[8:29] Mike

And so they've got a, a really innovative way to make sure they're bringing in the best talent and they're not afraid to roll up their sleeves.

[8:36] Mike

As a result, they've said, well, let's make that core skill set scalable.

[8:39] Mike

And so they've sponsored additional funds vertically and increased their, their kind of velocity of capital, raised more funds more frequently, but stayed in that each fund and, and their core underlying investments have stayed in that in that mid-market zone.

[8:56] David

To scale a business like that, you'd have to have a lot of discipline, I think about who you bring into your business because you couldn't do it all yourself and you'd be finding that now, I'm sure in your own business.

[9:09] David

Are there particular traits or qualities that you look for in people when when you're advertising?

[9:15] Mike

Absolutely.

[9:16] Mike

The first thing is we've been really lucky, as I've said, some of that, that early team from 2018-2019.

[9:09] David

Are there particular traits or qualities that you look for in people when when you're advertising?

[9:15] Mike

Absolutely.

[9:16] Mike

The first thing is we've been really lucky, as I've said, some of that, that early team from 2018-2019.

[9:24] Mike

In fact, almost all of them are still with us today and they've grown and gotten a lot more experienced alongside us.

[9:31] Mike

And so some of that natural scalability has occurred as folk.

[9:34] Mike

You know that we've got our, our, our third investment managing director now, Ashton Tay alongside us, who've learned how Genesis invests alongside us.

[9:45] Mike

We've learned at the same time they have.

[9:47] Mike

And, and so there's an inherent scalability there.

[9:50] Mike

But as we, as we look for more junior folk to, to join us, we are looking for, for the same things I think we are.

[9:58] Mike

We tend to believe that we can train new people in the, the kind of hard skills, you know, how to, how to build a model, how to read a balance sheet, you know, how a particular healthcare industry works.

[10:09] Mike

But the bits that that we find hard to train are kind of some of the attitude and mindset skills.

[10:15] Mike

You want someone that's got some, got a little bit of hunger, really wants to make an impact and someone that's not, not too precious to roll up their sleeves.

[10:25] Mike

You know, investing in these small businesses is often not glamorous.

[10:28] Mike

And you know, everyone up and down the scale at Genesis sometimes needs to roll up their sleeves and get stuck in so that attitude is also really valued.

[10:39] Mike

And also having commercial curiosity.

[10:41] Mike

There are some people that really lend themselves to curiosity about a business, how it works, curiosity about a market, how it works and is drawn to that more than they're drawn to the anatomy of a deal and a transaction.

[10:53] Mike

I think that's what we really look for.

[10:56] David

Yeah.

[10:57] David

Maybe that mindset of what do I get to do today rather than, oh, I've got to do this today.

[11:02] Mike

Absolutely.

[11:03] Mike

Absolutely.

[11:04] Mike

Yeah.

[11:04] David

Your Genesis position in the market has moved a lot.

[11:09] David

Your profile is much higher than it was.

[11:12] David

Has that tangibly changed life for the firm?

[11:18] Mike

Yes and no.

[11:19] David

I mean, like fundraising, for example.

[11:22] David

Yeah.

[11:22] Mike

So look, absolutely so on some of that it, it really has changed.

[11:27] Mike

So we'll have, we had investors in our last, last fundraising round say, oh, you know, it's great to see new firms coming up and you know, it's been 8-8 years of long work to, to kind of really pop up onto the radar.

[11:43] Mike

Similar with, with some advisors as well as, as well as some, some vendors.

[11:46] Mike

So they'll, they'll say, oh, you know, Yep, I, I'm now thinking of you guys when it comes to, to healthcare businesses, I think particularly when we talk to, to vendors or founders of healthcare businesses, it's, it's really helpful to be able to point to some historical successes.

[12:00] Mike

That's definitely changed the nature of the conversation.

[12:03] David

Also on the employee side, it would have changed.

[12:06] Mike

We, we've got, we've got employees now, we've got people in the market now approaching us about, about employment opportunities within Genesis, which is a which is a nice change.

[12:17] Mike

But at the same time we're, we're still pretty focused on, on the, the core attributes that made us that took us to this position.

[12:26] Mike

And actually day-to-day in the firm, not, not it hasn't changed as much as it, it might sound.

[12:30] Mike

We're still very focused on those mid-market deals on rolling up our sleeves and adding value in the businesses and, and, and doing what has been so successful in getting us to where we are today.

[12:44] David

And could you just touch briefly upon how you source those mid-market deals?

[12:49] David

Are they through processes, are they proprietary opportunities or a mix of both?

[12:54] Mike

Yeah, Actually this is a statistic we share during our fundraising.

[13:00] Mike

90% of the investments that Genesis has made since its inception have been completely proprietary.

[13:05] Mike

And so outside of market processes broadly businesses find their way to us one of three ways.

[13:12] Mike

First is yes, absolutely intermediated deals from advisors.

[13:15] Mike

We will always make sure we take a look.

[13:17] Mike

We think one of our goals is to be across hopefully almost every healthcare transaction within Australia and New Zealand.

[13:25] Mike

And so we do want to make sure we stay across advisor LED deals, but it only represents 10%.

[13:29] Mike

We very often find that even if we participate in the process, our value add, our what helps us win is not paying the highest price for a business at auction.

[13:42] Mike

The other two ways they find their way to us inbound.

[13:45] Mike

So increasingly as time has gone on, as we've built a reputation either directly from vendors who will knock on our door, send us an email or approach us often through an intermediary and ask for an introduction to us.

[14:01] Mike

They'll say we saw what you did with Business X, we'd love to chat to you about our business.

[14:07] Mike

And about 30% of our investments come about that way.

[14:10] Mike

The rest, the other 60% outbound driven.

[14:13] Mike

So we have a dedicated outbound function that's led by James Hamlin, our MD of origination and we go about that thematically.

[14:21] Mike

We go what sectors within healthcare do we think are not just attractive now, but will be attractive in three or four years from now, just like the pharma services businesses we invested in.

[14:31] Mike

First up, let's map the universe of all of the businesses within that sub sector that we can that we can find.

[14:38] Mike

Let's meet as many of them as we can and reach out to them.

[14:42] Mike

And then once we've, we, we find it's a, a multi month process.

[14:45] Mike

We've really seeped in an industry, understand how it works, who's who in the zoo, who's reputationally strong, who's not.

[14:51] Mike

And then often we get to to pick which, which partners we, we can work with in that, in that sub sector.

[14:58] David

You've touched upon some of the early successes and a bit of good luck and you've maximised the return on that good luck.

[15:08] David

Are there any other transactions that are particularly memorable for you in the, the life of Genesis Capital so far?

[15:15] Mike

Yeah, Maybe it's because you're, you're sitting across from me, David, But the Pacific Smiles transaction that we worked on together is, is one that I think is, is, is particularly memorable.

[15:27] Mike

It was an interesting it was an interesting transaction.

[15:30] Mike

I think firstly because while we knew Dental really well, as I'd mentioned already, we'd invested in Dental a couple of times before looking at Pacific Smiles, it'd been a business we'd been watching for a really long time.

[15:42] Mike

And so outside in, we built a lot of conviction that it was a great business that had temporarily lost its way and that we could help to, to restore to its former glory.

[15:55] Mike

But in a lot of ways that was the easy bit.

[15:57] Mike

Then there was a whole host of other things that we needed to do to make the investment that I had.

[16:03] Mike

I had very little experience in and was learning for the first time.

[16:08] Mike

The first thing we had to, to, to address was, well, you know, it's a public list of business and so it's being marked to market every day and it's, it's supposed to be an efficient market.

[16:17] Mike

How can we have such conviction that it's, it's a great investment, but you know, the rest of the market not, not see it, see it the same way.

[16:24] Mike

And so we spent a lot of time kind of rechecking yourself, making sure that we weren't getting caught up in deal fever and that we still were convicted that this was at the end of the day, not a vanity project and was going to deliver returns for investors.

[16:38] Mike

And then secondly, as you well know, because you taught me a lot of these skills, we had to learn how to navigate the process to either initially via hopefully scheme of arrangement, but in the end via takeover offer bring a business that was publicly listed private.

[17:00] Mike

And it took a lot longer than I thought it would and had had more roadblocks along the way than I initially thought.

[17:07] Mike

But because we had that conviction, we managed to get through it.

[17:11] Mike

And we wouldn't have been able to navigate that without the guidance and counsel from the Clifford Chance team.

[17:20] David

And it is, it is, it's, it's something that I, I, I really did lean on a lot as we came to each decision point over and over again, getting, getting advice from people like yourself who'd been there and done that.

[17:33] David

It's very kind of you to say and shout out to Rob Tang, who was so valuable.

[17:41] David

And were there any moments where you thought, I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have done this one?

[17:48] Mike

I think probably in the in the dark depths of that takeover's panel process, there were, there were a couple of moments where I had to, to step back and have a have a whiskey to, to give myself some courage.

[17:57] Mike

Actually, it was, it was.

[17:57] Mike

It's another point coming back to your questions around the partnership, Chris doesn't just make sure we're not believing our own fantasies about the business, but there were a couple of times, maybe more than a couple in that specific smiles process where I went, you know what, maybe we should just sell out and, and walk and, and take the profit we've gained where, where he would flip and be like, no, no, no.

[18:19] Mike

There was a reason we've had this conviction.

[18:20] Mike

Let me remind it, let me remind you.

[18:22] Mike

And it helped to to continue to keep going.

[18:25] David

Oh, that's so interesting.

[18:26] David

How valuable to have somebody that you can, you know, is going to be there in those moments.

[18:31] Mike

Yeah, absolutely.

[18:33] David

On the flip side to deals that you have done, are there any that you didn't do that you look back on and think, you know what, maybe we should have gone after that one a little harder.

[18:43] Mike

Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting.

[18:46] Mike

One of the sectors that in health that has been an over performer over the last 3-4 years will have been the aged care sector.

[18:58] Mike

And it was 1, you know, three or four years ago.

[19:00] Mike

It certainly wasn't that position coming out of COVID.

[19:02] Mike

It was almost uninvestable for a period of time there.

[19:05] Mike

And Chris and I had a number of conversations saying, you know what, it might be the time now, it might be the time now and talk to a few, a few businesses and there was one that that we got close to.

[19:15] Mike

But in the end, we decided to err on the side of of caution when it came to a premium valuation at the time for, for a business in that sector and and decided to to hold fire.

[19:27] Mike

But in the end that businesses has gone well.

[19:30] Mike

But but the truth be told, David, we don't spend that much time thinking about the the businesses that we could have done or maybe, maybe should have done that have gone well because private equity is a little bit different from venture capital.

[19:45] Mike

It's it's like an, it's an aircraft mentality.

[19:46] Mike

Each one of your your businesses you want to be to be a success.

[19:51] Mike

We have touched wood so far, never lost capital on a platform investment for for investors.

[19:56] Mike

And we take that responsibility seriously.

[19:59] Mike

And so we we would rather miss a miss a good one than than invest in a bad one.

[20:04] David

Yeah, OK.

[20:06] David

Maybe changing tech now and, and thinking more generally about the Australian private equity industry, There's been a lot of press about exits and the, and the challenge to, to monetise platforms.

[20:23] David

How, how do you feel about the investing landscape generally and in Australian private equity and, and do you feel that as a healthcare investor there are are tailwinds that are particularly beneficial to you?

[20:40] Mike

I genuinely think it's, it's increasingly robust in, in investing in Australia.

[20:45] Mike

I think it's something that underlying investors see too.

[20:49] Mike

In the last couple of years, what we've seen is as as China has become less and less investable for you know, large institutions in the in the region looking to deploy capital in private equity.

[21:00] Mike

The beneficiaries have been markets in Asia that have been more mature like Japan, like Korea and like Australia.

[21:07] Mike

Australia is, has been a market that over a really long period of time, 20 plus years has demonstrated really strong DPI and having capital come back to investors.

[21:18] Mike

And as a result that I think we've seen a little bit of a flight to markets like Australia in the last couple of years.

[21:26] Mike

What that means that I think is helpful for firms like Genesis that are playing in that Loeb in market is as that capital has has come in from institutional LP's that's typically come in, in the in the band above where we are from a fund size perspective.

[21:39] Mike

So you see more and more firms at that kind of Australian billion dollar level including our our Old Firm as well as as well as the the really kind of big end of town like the the TPGS and so on raising smaller funds that also play in in that space.

[21:56] Mike

And that band is what we see is our exit universe.

[21:58] Mike

So we are we are doing the hard work finding smaller mid market businesses, adding value to them, making them in institutional grade and then representing them to market so that firms like that as well as trade investors and IPOs can can take them forward.

[22:14] Mike

So we, we are feeling really optimistic actually about exit opportunities over the next two or three years.

[22:20] David

And as a pure play healthcare investor, do you expect to see more and more pureplay investors in, in other sectors in the period ahead?

[22:32] Mike

Yeah, I, I, I don't think we'll see.

[22:35] Mike

I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll see too many more pureplay healthcare investors.

[22:40] Mike

I think Australia is an interesting market that it is deep enough for specialists but probably not deep enough for multiple specialists in a particular stream.

[22:47] Mike

Having said that, I think you are seeing flirtations with specialty firms outside of tech and and healthcare.

[22:57] Mike

And I would be wouldn't be surprised at all if in five or ten years time there were a group of five or six of us in our various specialty lanes investing in in, in the country.

[23:06] David

And for LP's in private equity firms or of private equity firms, should they be worried about AI or excited about AI?

[23:18] Mike

This is easily the most the question I got that we got the most in our most recent round of conversation with with LP's.

[23:26] Mike

I think if you aren't thinking deeply about AI for your portfolio, then you really are at risk of being left behind and, and you've articulated it really well.

[23:36] Mike

I think depending on the underlying portfolio company AI can be primarily a risk or primarily an opportunity.

[23:42] Mike

It, it most often is both, but it is, it is usually primarily one or the other.

[23:49] Mike

We've been lucky I think and it it's certainly, we certainly didn't predict AI.

[23:53] Mike

But when you look at our portfolio, because it is healthcare services, pharma services, these are the, the kind of bricks and mortar hard to disrupt or you know, everything is disruptible over a long enough time scale, but hard to disrupt in the, in the kind of short to medium term.

[24:10] Mike

And so we, we really do believe our portfolio is more on the opportunity side of things.

[24:14] Mike

But even then, if we don't capitalise on that opportunity, then pretty quickly it'll flip to be a, a threat as others in in our portfolio's sectors do.

[24:25] Mike

So we've employ dedicated AI resources at the at the genesis level to help our portfolio move along that journey.

[24:33] David

And you look for businesses that have a a Moat.

[24:36] David

So it might be sort of proprietary information that you know, informs bespoke AI solution.

[24:44] David

Is that something that you look for in your investments?

[24:46] Mike

Now every investment that we do, we take to IC has has to have have a strategy about AI, whether that is that is resilient to, to AI disruption because of a mode, whether that's because there is an opportunity available to it, that is, is more available to it than other participants in the market that we believe we can capitalise on.

[25:04] Mike

At the very least, it has to form a part of our, you know, a part of our diligence.

[25:08] David

Yeah.

[25:09] David

As a a parent with one high school age student, at the moment, I'm really struggling to give good advice about career direction in the uncertainty of AI.

[25:24] David

But are there any thoughts you can offer to young professionals moving into private equity and you know how they can maximise the opportunities in an AI world?

[25:35] Mike

Yeah, it's a it's a great one, particularly recently as you, you know, asked Claude to make PowerPoint presentations for you.

[25:43] Mike

It it's, it's something that's crossed my mind as well.

[25:45] Mike

And, and, and also with my, my father had on, I think any advice that I think anyone gives is, is, is, is only only a stab in the dark at this point.

[25:58] Mike

But I think a lot of what I said earlier around the, the mindset versus the hard skills, you know, really leaning toward leading into, you know, your commercial thinking, your attitude, etcetera, versus learning hard skills, you know, like how to build a model, etcetera, that may easily, more easily be disrupted.

[26:15] Mike

Is, is what I would give for young professionals that are in the early, early rungs of the ladder in, in finance.

[26:22] David

Interesting.

[26:23] David

As we know from current macro circumstances, there are a lot of things that are outside of our control that influence the market.

[26:30] David

But is there anything in particular that keeps you up at night in your role?

[26:34] Mike

The best thing we can do to, to be resilient to, to those shocks is ensure that you're building the, the best businesses you can and, and get businesses to be exit ready as, as quickly as you can, because optimal times for exit can come and they can go and, and, and you, you hope to be to be ready when, when they're there.

[26:53] Mike

I think if there was something that that keeps, keeps me up at night more would be more the people and culture elements of, of running a business at the end of the day, you know, as Genesis has, has grown, you know, I think Chris and I have had, have had to make the, the, the transition to from being players to, to coaches and, and, and finding scalability in our team.

[27:16] Mike

And, and to get the best out of a team, the Genesis team, as well as the team within the portfolio.

[27:22] Mike

You want, you need to get the cultural settings right.

[27:24] Mike

And you need to get, you know, people who are enthused to come to work and, and, and really, really add value in, in their spheres and are constantly learning and, and progressing in their own, in their own skill sets.

[27:40] Mike

And that's a, that's a really difficult thing.

[27:42] Mike

So that's probably something that we are very often thinking about.

[27:46] David

And finally, what keeps you focused and energised as a leader of Genesis Capital?

[27:53] Mike

You know what it, it might sound trite, but I think we are blessed to be investing in the healthcare sector.

[27:59] Mike

And the impact that the businesses, the, the reason that I made the transition into private equity in the 1st place was that I could see the impact that building businesses through, through kind of private capital in the healthcare sector could have on the community and, and Australians at large.

[28:17] Mike

And I'm, I'm, I'm really privileged that the businesses that we've invested in are all doing that in their own way.

[28:23] Mike

And it's in those in those tougher moments where, where things aren't always going right, It's, it's a really useful thing to be able to look back on and go, you know, I'm really proud of what we've achieved.

[28:33] David

Mike, you've been very generous with your time.

[28:36] David

Thanks for such a, a candid and thoughtful conversation.

[28:40] David

I appreciate it very much.

[28:41] Mike

No, David, it's been a pleasure talking to you.

[28:42] David

Thank you.

[28:43] Mike

Thank you.